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	<title>Comments on: where are all the Republican politicians lobbying for an invasion of North Korea?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/</link>
	<description>A couple things about politics, sports, travel, and other stuff.</description>
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		<title>By: Paul F.</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5514</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5514</guid>
		<description>Those who didn&#039;t contemplate problems in Iraq were idiots with no awareness of statistical principals and the uncertainty principal.  The 10% I used was merely demonstrative, but the degree of potential error in any prediction is fixed by the circumstances and has nothing to do with Iraq.  Moreover, merely because there is a possibility of error, does not mean it will be spoken about.  The last thing a populace wants to hear before entering into a war is, &quot;As your president, I hereby declare today, in full support of our brave young and women deployed this morning to that deathtrap in warland, that we have every confidence they have an 85.6% chance of being successfull insofar as success is measured by a particular outcome on the ground within x amount of days, and acceptable casualty rates of less than or equal to 3 per 1000.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those who didn&#8217;t contemplate problems in Iraq were idiots with no awareness of statistical principals and the uncertainty principal.  The 10% I used was merely demonstrative, but the degree of potential error in any prediction is fixed by the circumstances and has nothing to do with Iraq.  Moreover, merely because there is a possibility of error, does not mean it will be spoken about.  The last thing a populace wants to hear before entering into a war is, &#8220;As your president, I hereby declare today, in full support of our brave young and women deployed this morning to that deathtrap in warland, that we have every confidence they have an 85.6% chance of being successfull insofar as success is measured by a particular outcome on the ground within x amount of days, and acceptable casualty rates of less than or equal to 3 per 1000.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul F.</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5513</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5513</guid>
		<description>From the poll:

&quot;Support for a military response comes from 66% of Republicans, 52% of Democrats and 54% of those not affiliated with either major political party. There is no gender gap on the issue as a military response is favored by 57% of men and 57% of women.&quot; 

So Republicans are somewhat more hawkish than Democrats and Independents though overall support is across the spectrum and ignores gender.

If I have to guess, which I do, the reason it is not being proposed is mulifold.  First, most politicians, I think, agree that this is primarily an issue for the administration and that, tactically, it doesn&#039;t make sense to telegraph such a move.  In other words, let the administration take a shot at doing it their way, determine whether to support that approach or not, and then give it a little time to succeed or fail.  More importantly, I think most politicians wish to focus on the economy and rightly conclude that while the population may support military action, it is not pressing or exigent at this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the poll:</p>
<p>&#8220;Support for a military response comes from 66% of Republicans, 52% of Democrats and 54% of those not affiliated with either major political party. There is no gender gap on the issue as a military response is favored by 57% of men and 57% of women.&#8221; </p>
<p>So Republicans are somewhat more hawkish than Democrats and Independents though overall support is across the spectrum and ignores gender.</p>
<p>If I have to guess, which I do, the reason it is not being proposed is mulifold.  First, most politicians, I think, agree that this is primarily an issue for the administration and that, tactically, it doesn&#8217;t make sense to telegraph such a move.  In other words, let the administration take a shot at doing it their way, determine whether to support that approach or not, and then give it a little time to succeed or fail.  More importantly, I think most politicians wish to focus on the economy and rightly conclude that while the population may support military action, it is not pressing or exigent at this time.</p>
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		<title>By: Scholar in Training</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5512</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholar in Training</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5512</guid>
		<description>And it seems to me that this 10% error calculation is there because of Iraq, no? Certainly few people were talking about the possibility of failure when it came to invading Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And it seems to me that this 10% error calculation is there because of Iraq, no? Certainly few people were talking about the possibility of failure when it came to invading Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: Scholar in Training</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5511</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholar in Training</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5511</guid>
		<description>Right, so if there is high level of Democratic support for this too, don&#039;t you find it at least a little puzzling that no serious politicians are lobbying for a NK attack? I mean I can&#039;t find one serious Senator that is suggesting it. If they are it isn&#039;t making news..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, so if there is high level of Democratic support for this too, don&#8217;t you find it at least a little puzzling that no serious politicians are lobbying for a NK attack? I mean I can&#8217;t find one serious Senator that is suggesting it. If they are it isn&#8217;t making news..</p>
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		<title>By: Paul F.</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5510</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5510</guid>
		<description>Umm, yeah, if Rasmussen is right, then I would expect our Republican to support such action, but party considerations, and risk may caution in favor of letting the ruling party set policy on this matter, nonetheless.  In other words, even if there were only a 10% chance of military action going terribly badly, it may not be worthwhile or expedient to campaign on that topic, particularly if your constituency, though in support of such action, is far more interested in other topics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm, yeah, if Rasmussen is right, then I would expect our Republican to support such action, but party considerations, and risk may caution in favor of letting the ruling party set policy on this matter, nonetheless.  In other words, even if there were only a 10% chance of military action going terribly badly, it may not be worthwhile or expedient to campaign on that topic, particularly if your constituency, though in support of such action, is far more interested in other topics.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul F.</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5509</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5509</guid>
		<description>I was posting the above, while you were posting yours.  I am hesitant to put a guess on it, but it appears that the Rasmussen poll conducted immediately before the launch was properly conducted with a reasonable error rate and, as I note above, seems to suggest as much support amongst Democrats as Republicans for military action.  I would like to see a poll with all the underlying data stratified out, but I&#039;m not sure I can find it.  The Rasmussen poll may suggest that you (and I) may be disappointed in our fellow Democrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was posting the above, while you were posting yours.  I am hesitant to put a guess on it, but it appears that the Rasmussen poll conducted immediately before the launch was properly conducted with a reasonable error rate and, as I note above, seems to suggest as much support amongst Democrats as Republicans for military action.  I would like to see a poll with all the underlying data stratified out, but I&#8217;m not sure I can find it.  The Rasmussen poll may suggest that you (and I) may be disappointed in our fellow Democrats.</p>
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		<title>By: Scholar in Training</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5508</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholar in Training</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5508</guid>
		<description>Wow! That really is a high number.

Rasmussen isn&#039;t great on polling methodology, but it is better than Fox news. 

So now back to your original &quot;story&quot; about the Republican in Texas. He sees this poll on this blog and thinks what? I want to get re-elected so I *won&#039;t* support what 60% of the country wants?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! That really is a high number.</p>
<p>Rasmussen isn&#8217;t great on polling methodology, but it is better than Fox news. </p>
<p>So now back to your original &#8220;story&#8221; about the Republican in Texas. He sees this poll on this blog and thinks what? I want to get re-elected so I *won&#8217;t* support what 60% of the country wants?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul F.</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5507</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5507</guid>
		<description>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/poll_attack_north_korea/

According to the cited Rasmussen poll above, 57% of all Americans support a military strike on North Korea.  Based on the demographics of the poll, it would be safe to conclude that Democrats support a military solution at or above the 40% level of the Fox survey.

I&#039;m not quite sure what to make of this.  Perhaps the days of liberal hawkishness are on the ebb, or, as stated in the article, perhaps its just a really bad idea to base foreign policy on polling.  I know the Brookings Institute has come down in favor of diplomatic action in the form of UN sanctions and a temporary withdrawal from 6 way talks until a serious change in NKorean behavior.  Moreover, based on the more granular data available to Brooking as compared to the general populace, they are convinced that the rocket launch constituted a failure.  Moreover, Brookings indicates that NKorea used the last of its fissible material for the last test and current lack sufficient plutonium for a bomb and the means to produce it in short order.  Moreover, NKorea does not have an adequate delivery system or the ability to adequately miniaturize its explosives such that they could be delivered in the event enough bomb grade plutonium were produced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/poll_attack_north_korea/" rel="nofollow">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/poll_attack_north_korea/</a></p>
<p>According to the cited Rasmussen poll above, 57% of all Americans support a military strike on North Korea.  Based on the demographics of the poll, it would be safe to conclude that Democrats support a military solution at or above the 40% level of the Fox survey.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not quite sure what to make of this.  Perhaps the days of liberal hawkishness are on the ebb, or, as stated in the article, perhaps its just a really bad idea to base foreign policy on polling.  I know the Brookings Institute has come down in favor of diplomatic action in the form of UN sanctions and a temporary withdrawal from 6 way talks until a serious change in NKorean behavior.  Moreover, based on the more granular data available to Brooking as compared to the general populace, they are convinced that the rocket launch constituted a failure.  Moreover, Brookings indicates that NKorea used the last of its fissible material for the last test and current lack sufficient plutonium for a bomb and the means to produce it in short order.  Moreover, NKorea does not have an adequate delivery system or the ability to adequately miniaturize its explosives such that they could be delivered in the event enough bomb grade plutonium were produced.</p>
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		<title>By: Scholar in Training</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5506</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholar in Training</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5506</guid>
		<description>But in truth it turns out that 60% want some type of military action taken, it&#039;s just that 20 percent of those folks think it should be China that takes it, not us. This doesn&#039;t paint a portrait of peacenik conservatives, Paul. 

I agree with you that the poll is meaningless from a statistical perspective. I raise it as a discussion piece and nothing else. Indeed my hunch is that if one were to conduct a national poll with proper scientific polling methods, we would see something like 25-30% support for attacking NK. What do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But in truth it turns out that 60% want some type of military action taken, it&#8217;s just that 20 percent of those folks think it should be China that takes it, not us. This doesn&#8217;t paint a portrait of peacenik conservatives, Paul. </p>
<p>I agree with you that the poll is meaningless from a statistical perspective. I raise it as a discussion piece and nothing else. Indeed my hunch is that if one were to conduct a national poll with proper scientific polling methods, we would see something like 25-30% support for attacking NK. What do you think?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul F.</title>
		<link>http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/2009/04/where-are-all-the-republican-politicians-lobbying-for-an-invasion-of-north-korea/comment-page-1/#comment-5505</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acouplethings.com/blog/?p=14383#comment-5505</guid>
		<description>No, it doesn&#039;t support your assertion.  The fact of the matter is that it is meaningless in any statistical sense.  Leaving that aside, however, and assuming that it represents an accurate depiction of the most hawkish part of your party, why would you, as a Republican representative, support a policy that does not even have the support of half of the most hawkish members of your constituency?

Restated.  Assume I am a hawk and a political pragmatist.  Also assume that my district is in central Texas and voted, overwhelmingly (say 80%) in support of McCain, Bush, et. al.  As a pragmatist, I wish to keep my job, so I am unlikely to publically support positions that are not popular amongst my constituency.  As a hawk, I am inclined to look for military solutions to international problems.  Naturally, as a pragmatist, I will wish to poll my extremely conservative and hawkish constituency before coming out publically on the most pressing issues.  Such an issue arises and I am inclined to support a military strike on Korea, but I am concerned that my constituency might disagree, so I conduct a blind poll with all appropriate safeguards and it comes back that 40% support military action and 60% oppose it.  Now further suppose that I wish to run for the Senate next time and I will require state wide support which is less hawkish than my current constituency, so I poll the rest of the state, which is still conservative and it runs 30% in support of military action and 70% opposed.  Lastly, assume that I have been told that I am a black horse candidate for the next presidency and that, if I can keep on the straight and narrow, I am likely to get some broad support, while national polls are running 15% in favor of military action and 85% opposed.  In those cirucmstances, I would be an idiot to come out for military action, particularly if I can manage to sound hawkish while deferring on the military option.  After all, if public opinion shifts, I&#039;ll be the first to jump in.

So, again, the little on-line poll is essentially worthless as a statistical matter and, to the extent you can extrapolate anything from it, the only rational conclusion is that any pragmatic republican should shy away from the military option with NK, at least until they have far more information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it doesn&#8217;t support your assertion.  The fact of the matter is that it is meaningless in any statistical sense.  Leaving that aside, however, and assuming that it represents an accurate depiction of the most hawkish part of your party, why would you, as a Republican representative, support a policy that does not even have the support of half of the most hawkish members of your constituency?</p>
<p>Restated.  Assume I am a hawk and a political pragmatist.  Also assume that my district is in central Texas and voted, overwhelmingly (say 80%) in support of McCain, Bush, et. al.  As a pragmatist, I wish to keep my job, so I am unlikely to publically support positions that are not popular amongst my constituency.  As a hawk, I am inclined to look for military solutions to international problems.  Naturally, as a pragmatist, I will wish to poll my extremely conservative and hawkish constituency before coming out publically on the most pressing issues.  Such an issue arises and I am inclined to support a military strike on Korea, but I am concerned that my constituency might disagree, so I conduct a blind poll with all appropriate safeguards and it comes back that 40% support military action and 60% oppose it.  Now further suppose that I wish to run for the Senate next time and I will require state wide support which is less hawkish than my current constituency, so I poll the rest of the state, which is still conservative and it runs 30% in support of military action and 70% opposed.  Lastly, assume that I have been told that I am a black horse candidate for the next presidency and that, if I can keep on the straight and narrow, I am likely to get some broad support, while national polls are running 15% in favor of military action and 85% opposed.  In those cirucmstances, I would be an idiot to come out for military action, particularly if I can manage to sound hawkish while deferring on the military option.  After all, if public opinion shifts, I&#8217;ll be the first to jump in.</p>
<p>So, again, the little on-line poll is essentially worthless as a statistical matter and, to the extent you can extrapolate anything from it, the only rational conclusion is that any pragmatic republican should shy away from the military option with NK, at least until they have far more information.</p>
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